tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post2045713313209683063..comments2024-03-28T12:11:03.489-04:00Comments on Joan Soble: So Already . . . : "Diversity low in educator courses at Mass. colleges": That's Surprising???Joan Soblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-72411368187547659862014-05-02T10:23:49.615-04:002014-05-02T10:23:49.615-04:00Thanks for making me think of this as a person out...Thanks for making me think of this as a person outside of the schools rather than an employee of the schools. Big difference, but a very important shift not only in perspective but potential way of operating for change.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-63790935897911627492014-05-02T10:21:44.195-04:002014-05-02T10:21:44.195-04:00Just realized my education book group is reading t...Just realized my education book group is reading this Amanda Ripley's book this month!Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-953335155569470132014-05-02T09:58:46.490-04:002014-05-02T09:58:46.490-04:00One other thing that your community education asso...One other thing that your community education association website should track and update are job training and job placement activities. At the high schools, and afterward.<br /><br />Reach out to employers and employer associations.<br /><br />For all the reasons that we discussed earlier.<br /><br />Culture and productive activities should go together. Our neighborhoods need confidence that learning and building a successful life go hand in hand.<br /><br />If you can build that confidence at the grass roots, there will be popular support for necessary political and administrative reforms.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-17469055422437985442014-05-02T08:13:55.154-04:002014-05-02T08:13:55.154-04:00It seems to me that there are two aspects of organ...It seems to me that there are two aspects of organizing that would complement each other. First, making lists. Second, constructing daily routines.<br /><br />Lists.<br /><br />Much of organizing is making lists. Networking is the fancy schmancy idea. But you have to find a way to connect people.<br /><br />One way would be to start an organization (get a small grant, hire a helper) to coordinate education activities (in certain categories) in the metropolitan region. Start a "meeting place" website. Identify the school committees, the parent organizations, the continuing education programs, the teacher organizations, theater, music, film. Then track what is going on. Who is in charge where? Call, call, call. Update, update, update. Become the easy place to find out things. Become the proud place to announce things. Become a way for people to feel connected.<br /><br />Daily routines.<br /><br />Encourage similar projects in various places. Maybe it is teacher skill workshops, or student poetry awards.<br /><br />Arrange blues guitar continuing education. Or Swedish detective genre appreciation. Create a circuit for continuing education teachers with a schtick to ride. A circuit for theater companies to ride.<br /><br />Create a community. A place where people meet and have fun. Talk. Do some good.<br /><br />A fraternity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-90855709605540722912014-05-01T17:28:13.363-04:002014-05-01T17:28:13.363-04:00You're right, Jim. It's interesting: I...You're right, Jim. It's interesting: I'm on a committee with right now with some people who were very active Civil Rights organizers, and I often see their impatience with "just talk" and their simultaneous carefulness about what gets shared with whom, when, with whom. Other people on the committee have long organized parents, etc. around school policy issues quite successfully. The thing about all of these people is that they all tend to say "yes, I will" rather than "I wish I could, but . . .." You're making me appreciate some resources I'm in contact with all the time, although not around the issue we're discussing here--although, interestingly, around an issue that connects to this one in an oblique way.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-59900423200917498092014-05-01T14:41:10.796-04:002014-05-01T14:41:10.796-04:00My point was a little different, though I do not d...My point was a little different, though I do not disagree with your latest point.<br /><br />My point was that community organizing, building a community relationship between the school/continuing education and the locals, and organizing political support for specific proposals -- all that is very daunting and unfamiliar territory.<br /><br />Writing blogs, articles or book. Setting up an internet petition. Much more in our "continual student" comfort zone. No messy conversations with people who do not care that much, or who disagree, etc.<br /><br />It is unfair to expect education intellectuals to organize local meetings, activities and political initiatives. Not "in the lane" for academic debate.<br /><br />But the task at hand is organizing. No one much is doing it. (As with so many issues today.) <br /><br />For decades, we have learned to talk about things. Read about things. Think about things. Discuss things in a proper academic setting, or among friends.<br /><br />We have to change things. That means organizing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-67036454901302059272014-05-01T11:13:06.782-04:002014-05-01T11:13:06.782-04:00Sorry about the subject-verb disagreement in my fi...Sorry about the subject-verb disagreement in my first sentence!Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-90380858336131937152014-05-01T10:59:08.344-04:002014-05-01T10:59:08.344-04:00Or does Cambridge's financial "great shap...Or does Cambridge's financial "great shape" make us too apt to feel little or no need to partner with other institutions that have their own ideas about what could work?Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-40259089130027834052014-05-01T10:57:34.983-04:002014-05-01T10:57:34.983-04:00I guessed it was you, Nancy, but thanks for making...I guessed it was you, Nancy, but thanks for making sure I knew! Happy May 1!Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-19045886451050959532014-05-01T10:54:07.179-04:002014-05-01T10:54:07.179-04:00Hi, Nancy --
Your comments about the conservatis...Hi, Nancy -- <br /><br />Your comments about the conservatism of colleges' education and psychology departments is something I haven't thought about at all. Do you think that's in part because both fields are under fire by financial pressures that favor quick, standardized fixes (medications vs. therapy over time)?<br /><br />I want to think some more about the messages of conservatism to people of color. What kinds of conformity do you think are being most nurtured? You do have me thinking a lot about the graduates of teacher preparation programs who felt unprepared by those programs--so it's interesting to think of what they learned that they viewed as irrelevant, useless, or downright harmful. Would love to talk about this with you, since I need some education here.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-37794429292594220802014-05-01T10:45:04.198-04:002014-05-01T10:45:04.198-04:00What a week it's been for race-related issues ...What a week it's been for race-related issues in this country! So I share your worry about aspiring nonwhite teachers' challenges, especially given how generally "in trouble" the profession is--which means it's generating expressions of contempt and blame, followed by institutional responses that humiliate educators and make their workday efforts less classroom- and student-focused than ever.<br /><br />Howard Gardner talks a great deal about the problems that result when there's misalignment between the practice of, and the professed purposes and values of a profession. In education right now, there's a lot of talk about the importance of relationships -- you hear "Rigor, relevance, and relationships" a lot -- but I've often felt that what I thought constituted "relationships" with kids and what some of my supervisors saw as constituting "relationships" with kids were very different ideas. It's not a relationship just because I'm talking one-on-one with a kid.<br /><br />Your comments and those of others reading and responding have me thinking about the way all of this talk is framed. For example, how can we make sure that our efforts to connect with students are more for the sake of students than for the sake of needing to provide evidence that we're connecting with students to our supervisor/evaluators? I think our "real" purposes and worries shape how we do this work, and kids can feel when they're pawns in a system being implemented by fearful teachers and fearful administrators.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-53977522103840048042014-05-01T10:40:26.655-04:002014-05-01T10:40:26.655-04:00Thanks Joan - I appreciate your response and persp...Thanks Joan - I appreciate your response and perspective, definitely resonates!<br /><br />Elieli057https://www.blogger.com/profile/17846738786635463414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-38376886245043092482014-05-01T10:26:26.000-04:002014-05-01T10:26:26.000-04:00Hi, Linda -- Love your teaching hospital analogy! ...Hi, Linda -- Love your teaching hospital analogy! Given that you've worked in both Boston and Cambridge and are a "Cambridge parent," just wondering what your thoughts are about why Boston and Cambridge schools haven't become "teaching hospitals," especially given the crazy number of teacher-training institutions we have surrounding us. Or maybe that's part of the problem????Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-47207871225825305152014-05-01T10:22:49.362-04:002014-05-01T10:22:49.362-04:00Did write to the Boston Globe on Tuesday and got p...Did write to the Boston Globe on Tuesday and got published yesterday. Totally concur with your emphasis on community life--and there are schools and districts that manage to do that seriously and joyfully, as the occasion merits. <br /><br />Over the years, I've given a lot of thought about how and in what ways teaching jobs have become unmanageable and unreasonable, as you put it in a later comment. Going to review and rethink, with the idea of persuading a parent/community audience rather than a school administrator audience.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-35406245525974295932014-05-01T10:17:30.577-04:002014-05-01T10:17:30.577-04:00I am going to find Amanda Ripley's book, Niniv...I am going to find Amanda Ripley's book, Ninive -- thanks so much, and that article that was just posted on The Teacher Salary Project FB page is an important one for all of us involved in this conversation! I'll respond to it there: http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/teacherbeat/2014/04/poll_college_students_dont_fin.html?cmp=ENL-EU-NEWS2Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-53330907730146333142014-05-01T10:15:38.111-04:002014-05-01T10:15:38.111-04:00Hi, Jim --
I wouldn't characterize The Teache...Hi, Jim --<br /><br />I wouldn't characterize The Teacher Salary Project as a propaganda effort, but I--and they--would concur that it's not just about salaries. That's why they just posted this article on their FB page: http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/teacherbeat/2014/04/poll_college_students_dont_fin.html?cmp=ENL-EU-NEWS2.<br /><br />You are right on target when you say the job has to be more manageable and reasonable, and it's neither at the moment in most schools. Unfortunately, unlike some other unmanageable, unreasonable jobs out there, it's viewed negatively by young people choosing careers, parents, and teachers' bosses in far too many schools. I think you're right about beginning with a city--which is where Linda's really good ideas above come in!Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-41962469161459943562014-04-30T14:14:07.369-04:002014-04-30T14:14:07.369-04:00The Teacher Salary Project seems like a useful pro...The Teacher Salary Project seems like a useful propaganda effort, but it is not really what I had in mind.<br /><br />I think what is needed is grass roots organizing (a city, to start) with a broader focus. When you demonstrate success in one city, the movement will slowly grow by copycat.<br /><br />Yelling "more salaries" is too narrow. Very doubtful you will get a broad and growing coalition that way.<br /><br />In my experience, people want the job before them to be manageable and reasonable. But you have to attack the job that is there, not the job that you wish was there.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-34095934090096155122014-04-30T11:41:06.952-04:002014-04-30T11:41:06.952-04:00Hi, Eli --
I think that there's often an ass...Hi, Eli -- <br /><br />I think that there's often an assumption out there among some (I often fear many)--a racist assumption--that a racially diverse teacher force will not be a "top-notch" teacher force--as if diversity and high quality are mutually exclusive. <br /><br />But I agree with you that quality and diversity are actually two different issues. "Top-notch" teachers of any color are made over time through their own efforts and those of institutions and people who help them achieve their educator potentials over time.<br /><br />All teaching candidates, white or nonwhite, should be hired because they have the potential for top-notchness which can be cultivated and realized. They all need to be able to do, with a reasonable amount of support, a "good enough" job as "new" teachers so that their "newness" does not disadvantage their students, and to be able to do a "really good/excellent" job in time. <br /><br />I would never advocate hiring teachers just because they're nonwhite; but I do want to be sure that nonwhite teaching candidates aren't more vulnerable than similarly inexperienced white teaching candidates when they first enter the job market.<br /><br />Thanks for pushing my thinking an ability to articulate this!<br />JSSJoan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-7010088985968105732014-04-30T11:12:42.659-04:002014-04-30T11:12:42.659-04:00Hi Joan!
I am curious for more clarity about you...Hi Joan! <br /><br />I am curious for more clarity about your thoughts on producing "top-notch" teachers vs. teacher diversity. Those seem like two entirely different issues to me , what is your take? <br /><br />Ty,<br />Elieli057https://www.blogger.com/profile/17846738786635463414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-37502641312341547492014-04-29T15:32:58.164-04:002014-04-29T15:32:58.164-04:00I'm Ninive Calegari or Ninive Clements Calegar...I'm Ninive Calegari or Ninive Clements Calegari -- either! I am here. I love this piece. Thank you, Joan. I really appreciate your points about bringing and keeping talent from every background into this terrifically important profession.<br /><br />To chime in on Jim P's comments: Funding at local level leads to great inequity. Also, given local funding governors all cross their arms and say, "oh well, what can I do?" and most do nothing. Forgiving loans is a key factor. <br /><br /><br />And, I agree with Linda as well: while successful countries don't look exactly like we do, we have to embrace their ideas: paid masters, double masters, professional growth, strong leadership, tough competition to get into teaching schools and professional wages. That is how they get real prestige. Everyone should read Amanda Ripley's book on this topic. She is a great storyteller and one thing she points out about the countries that are more successful is that the students themselves know that their teachers were the smartest kids in their own classes. <br /><br />If you look at the map on my website you will find that 30 out of 50 states have seen a decline in teachers' pay. What are they thinking? Had teachers salaries kept pace with classroom spending average salaries would be 120K.<br /><br />Please help us by taking our pledge on change.org, and by watching our film and sending it to anyone who can make a difference! It's available in 100 million homes and you can see if you're one here: Theteachersalaryproject.org.<br /><br />I wrote a piece on this topic recently for the Washington Post education blog. If you're interested, it's here:<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/25/why-teachers-salaries-should-be-doubled-now/<br /><br />Yours warmly,<br />Ninive<br /><br /><br /><br />PS<br />Joan Soble was an incredible mentor teacher. Just FYI, everyone. I only had her for one year and the lessons I learned from her were the ones I carried with me and revisited often.Ninive Calegarihttp://theteachersalaryproject.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-3406373566208797722014-04-29T15:14:06.456-04:002014-04-29T15:14:06.456-04:00I think Ninive goes professionally as Nineve Caleg...I think Ninive goes professionally as Nineve Calegari, not Ninive Clements. Dave Eggers goes as Dave Eggers. Don't know why the web address didn't appear in my comment, but you can find the organization. Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-53971660507621307472014-04-29T14:59:11.542-04:002014-04-29T14:59:11.542-04:00Lots to respond to in your comments above, everyon...Lots to respond to in your comments above, everyone, and I am thinking. Jim's comment reminds me of The Teacher Salary Project started by Ninive Clements (who student-taught and regular taught at CRLS and Dave Eggers: . <br /><br />Thanks! And more later.Joan Soblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01428565769358582476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-19342472681698332014-04-29T10:34:15.243-04:002014-04-29T10:34:15.243-04:00The ideology of individualism and low taxes (tinge...The ideology of individualism and low taxes (tinged with racism and xenophobia) in the early 1980s promised economic expansion, and was ready to flame out by the late 1980s but got rescued by the bubble economy of the 1990s. Clinton seemed to endorse the basic premises with his "age of big government is dead" crap, his promotion of Wall Street deregulation. GWB and Greenspan and Baucus delivered the tax cut of 2001 (wiping out social security surpluses from payroll tax increase of 1986) and the Iraq War and Afghanistan War debts, which, together with the rubble of the Wall Street credit collapse of 2008, provided the depression which now serves as the backdrop for the propaganda of austerity.<br /><br />Instead of kill all the bankers, the mantra is kill all the unions and pensioners. Nimble. Crazy, but the audience for this message has been husbanded by well-funded propaganda for decades.<br /><br />Teachers are the scapegoats.<br /><br />Not by chance. Not by a failure to recognize the subtle realities of teacher training and accomplishment. But by purpose.<br /><br />What is to be done?<br /><br />You must answer with your own purpose. And it must be the purpose of the people -- not the purpose of good teaching -- that you must answer with.<br /><br />The public does not give a rat's ass about good teaching.<br /><br />The public cares about its kids.<br /><br />You need a compelling message about how good teaching and better schools will help their kids.<br /><br />That has to be the lead.<br /><br />Second, how to make the schools better. With a simple, common sense explanation easily accessible to the general public.<br /><br />Not sure what that should be. But I have a few ideas.<br /><br />First, get the funding away from the local level. State funding probably best.<br /><br />Second, get talented people (white, black or green) interested in being teachers. Forgive all college and graduate school debt for 3 years of teaching. Free further course work in education, or training sessions. Higher salaries that escalate sharply in the early years if certain milestones are obtained.<br /><br />I think Linda's post had some great ideas for models. Models are good. Track records are good.<br /><br />Third, make schools the center of community activities.<br /><br />Continuing education, theater, sports, etc.<br /><br />As long as education is cut off from community life, it is easy to make "them" the scapegoat for political resentment. "Them" must become "us."<br /><br />1. Come up with a plan.<br /><br />2. Organize to implement the plan.<br /><br />Now that you are retired, you can get to work.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-30505357797654745862014-04-29T10:32:38.351-04:002014-04-29T10:32:38.351-04:00Joan,
I agree with all your points, so let's ...Joan,<br /><br />I agree with all your points, so let's skip that part and get to the criticism.<br /><br />To be a rabble-rouser and organize for action, you'll need to boil it down to 30 words or less. Or thereabouts. Slogan stuff.<br /><br />This is tricky because an essential point is more $$ for teachers, and a lot of people will turn off their ears as soon as they hear that part. So you have to turn your message away from data points and analysis, and more to story. Generally, morality tales work best.<br /><br />From the outside, it looks to me like this. In the 1950s and 1960s there was a golden age of teaching because women were not allowed in the professions. Talented women had nowhere to go except teaching.<br /><br />By the 1970s, only middling students went to teacher's college. In our area, Westfield State was viewed as the place to go to become a teacher. In a class of 100, only kids ranked maybe 65 or below applied to Westfield State.<br /><br />Teaching became like a post office job. Not great pay, but benefits and you could generally hang on to the iron ricebowl for life. Do the time. Wait for retirement.<br /><br />Because the tax base is local property taxes, people scrutinize all local expenditures (at least in small towns) with a microscope. (I vividly remember a fire chief whining fervently with tears in his eyes for funding for a new fire truck in the early 1970s.) Teacher salaries get such scrutiny. Much more personal than other budget issues partly because of the local tax base and partly because some of the taxpayers know the teachers.<br /><br />Some good teachers, some bad teachers, but all with an iron ricebowl, and it attracts resentment from people who are struggling financially, or who view public schools as hotbeds of sedition pushing evolution, etc.<br /><br />The rightwing organizes around resentment, generally, and fables about sedition in the public schools, in particular. Rightwing attacks unions generally, and teacher unions in particular.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178564939320109691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3714709754261276888.post-29401005942446308832014-04-28T22:18:13.812-04:002014-04-28T22:18:13.812-04:00So already, Joan, I think we in Massachusetts can ...So already, Joan, I think we in Massachusetts can learn from the examples of places like Finland or the state of Victoria, Australia. These entities -- while racially less diverse than the U.S. are nonetheless similar in terms of economic diversity. They have invested holistically in growing great educators as well as a great public education system. Specifically, they've made teacher education programs rigorous, competitive --- and free -- and they pay teachers from the start a living wage. While the new teachers are learning and honing their craft, they are doing so in a school environment that affords them a kinder schedule, with time built in to their days and weeks to work with experienced teachers and reflect on their own practice. While there are in place standards for student learning, there are almost no standardized tests to measure this learning....<br />As a country, I am not sure we could manage this. But as a state, or even as a city, I think Massachusetts -- and/or Cambridge and Boston -- have the resources (financial and human) and above all the imagination to create something like what Finland has done. BTR is a good start. Yet, as you point out, when the residency ends, the support should not. If I were in charge of the world, CRLS (for example) would view itself much the way a teaching hospital does: founded on the expectation that professional learning never ends and providing ongoing, highly valued ways for teachers to become top-notch by working with their colleagues as they work with students.<br />And starting salary would have to be higher. (It took me 10+ years -- with a Master's and manageable student debt -- not to live paycheck to paycheck.)<br />Thanks for writing.<br />LindaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11012116393062311863noreply@blogger.com